Been quite a while since I started a new discussion. Am searching for views on spanking.
Paramaters, etc. It might be nice to get Todd's views on this.

In our house we have implemented a few guidelines, not sure if they're good or bad, it's just what we do.

1. No spanking with objects. Some people advocate using a ruler or rod or some kind. I use my hand. I can spank hard enough to make an impression, but it hurts me to do so as well.
2. No spanking without warning. I can't just haul off and hit a kid because they did something. I try to make it as businesslike as possible. "Son, you did x, it's inappropriate, and you know that. No head to your room, I need to give you a spanking."
3. NO ANGER!!! I need to be emotionally calm when delivering. If there is any impatience of anger, it can't happen. This is a disciplinary action, NOT an emotional reaction, and my kids need to know that.
4. Use discretion when telling the difference between childish irresponsibility and willful disobedience. Especially when the kids are younger. They haven't developed that common sense yet to know why it's a bad idea to draw on the walls. The first time (or two) they do so we try to use more creative means of training than simply spanking.

In general, I try to spank as little as possible, and only when the offense is deliberate and serious. There are of course minor exceptions to this. For example, a 9-12 month old child might receive a small swat (emphasis on small) when they repeatedly try to roll over when getting the diaper changed. This is mainly because they don't have the verbal skills, and we want to train them to stay put to get the diaper on. Then they can roam. This has worked wonders with our kids and it honestly only takes maybe 1 or 2 swats at most and they have it down. And it hasn't damaged the kids.

My general view on spanking has changed over the years. I used to think it was the perfect solution to every problem, but I learned to view it as a last resort. There are lots of other ways to train our kids in proper behavior that truly do work.

Just my $.02

Edit:
how funny, I didn't see m's response, and we closed with almost the same exact phrase!

Anyway, reading his reminded me of guideline 5: always end with a hug and "I love you". The prayer thing isn't a bad idea either!

Proverbs is filled with admonitions to use the rod in child training, and even has some pretty heavy warnings for not doing so: like Proverbs 13:24 which asserts that not using the rod to discipline your son is an act of hatred against him.

In my family, we believe in having the consequence be appropriate to the offense, and use the rod as "the full weight of the law"; i.e. knowledgeable disobedience, defiance, lying, deception, stealing, violence, etc.

For lessor offenses, we use logical and structured consequences: for example, if a bike wasn't put away then they loose the privilege of riding it for a week. If it happens again, then they loose it for a month. Or, if someone was unruly at the dinner table, then they loose the privilege of watching the family video that we had planned for the evening and have to just go to bed early (with no toys, etc). The key for these offenses is that something that really "hurts" (really matters to them) has to be implemented.

If lessor offenses are not corrected by 1 or 2 of these consequences, then they graduate to the rod.

As a commentary, I believe from a church-wide perspective that Christian parents are WAY to soft in child-training. Part of the reason is bcs we've allowed the world's psycho-babble-wisdom twist our minds, and we're more afraid of injuring our children's emotions then training them in righteousness. This is backed up by statistics from groups like Barna Research that show that there's very little difference in the righteousness-comparison btw Christian households and unbeliever's households: equal in divorce, debt usage, porn usage, etc. The training to submit to the rule of one wiser than ourselves must begin in the cradle, so that the great advantage of it being a habit is ingrained by the age of pre-teen. So many teen-power-struggles-resulting-in-rebellion are bcs the parents are waking up to this need years too late.

What a great topic for dad's to discuss...first let me say that I do believe spanking is ok and is one of many training tools parents should use. I believe that the bible does talk to training a child with a rod and I believe it should not be done in anger.

Spanking is also not a last resort...it has been my experience that when parents use it as a last resort they use lots of warnings and then get frustrated and then anger gets involved so to combat that here is what we do...

In my house we believe in first time obedience. That means when mom or dad ask a child to do something it is done fast and snappy and right the first time and without complaint, without argueing and without excuse. To get to this level with our children we must train them so that they fully understand what is expected of them and so we know they have the tools, capabilities, and maturity to do what we ask in this way. Once this is accomplished the child is the one who gets to choose whether they recieve a reward for there actions or discipline for their actions. It allows the kids to have a piece of the action.

Spanking in my home is done with a wooden spoon on the underwear, no jeans and no bare skin, and only for direct definance and disobedience. Depending on the severity of the offense will determine the number of swats never more than 6 (lying which adds an additional consequence of soap in the mouth).

We try hard to come up with creative solutions for our kids. Ones that apply directly to the offiense...If you steal a cookie that is counted as your next meal but you still get to sit at the table with the rest of the family while we eat...never had to do that one twice with the same kid.

Having said all that one of the best things I have found to cut down on all the discipline in my home is the amount of time I spend with my children working with them, teaching them, playing with them and reading to them. When I am doing these things it minimizes the number of discipline issues. It also teaches my kids that I care and I love them and I want whats best for them so when they do get out of line and know they have earned a consequence they submit to my authority more easily and are more teachable throughout the process.

I am blessed to be a father of 10 children and have one due in July 09!!!

I believe in spanking. We did with our kids, but we found that once they were 3-4 years old we didn't need to anymore.

Discipline is all about consistency. Parental consistency, which has a big bearing on respect... The lack of consistency leads to needing to "crack down" on children's behavior, as it has "crossed" a line.

I just recently got a new "inside" dog. She is part beagle, part jack Russel terrier. And the previous owners couldn't control her out of doors... She felt that once outside, her job was to get loose and run. And trust me after the first excursion outside with her without a leash, I understood... It took me 2 1/2 hours to capture her again, and I traveled miles... Once I finally caught her, it was pointless to spank her, she knew she was wrong, as she flipped over on her back and showed me her belly.

I borrowed my brother in laws shock collar, put it on and took her outside without the leash. Of course she ran, and I said "Annie, NO". She kept going, so I hit the button... She immediately turned and started running a different direction, again, I said "Annie, NO" and shocked her again, and she turned and came right back to me ready to go back inside. Since then, I have only had to shock her about 5 times when she was really pushing the envelope, usually all I have to do is press the tone button which reminds her of who is in control. The same is true of our kids. When we let issues go, and then all of a sudden react, our inconsistency is the cause of the issue.

But, if we focus on the issue, most of the time, we as parents are letting things get out of control, because I remember being a kid. As a kid, you were always pushing the envelope to see where the edge was... If you are a consistent parent, then the edge doesn't move all the time, and kids will be less likely to see where "today's" edge happens to lay...

Does that make sense?

My wife was the one who taught me this, so I can't pretend to be the "brilliant one". She is very good at making sure the kids know what is expected, and being consistent with them, so that they don't need to push the envelope to see where the "edge" is located. I know I wouldn't be that consistent by myself. But, after watching it with my kids (9-11) I know it works. We don't have a lot of "rules", but we are strict with respect issues. The children are expected to respect each other, our home, and their friends. Of course respecting their parents is a given...

So, look around the house, it is a wreck? If so, your kids (and most importantly you as a parent) don't respect your home... How can you tell your kids to pick up their room, when you don't keep the house clean? (your kids should help you with the house chores)

If you take something out, you put it away when you are done. Simple rule, but being consistent with it is the hard part. Many times our kids behavior is directly linked to our own shortcomings... The Bible makes it clear that us as dads need to train up our kids in the way they should go. I take this to mean we are to teach our kids how to lead productive lives, that honor God. So by being consistent in my training of them, and holding them accountable to show respect to others has limited the amount of discipline issues needed.

Plus, we home school... Which reduces the negative outside influence from others.

I like Tim's comments but as I see it, Biblically, we're commanded to take things to the physical level--but only when absolutely necessary. I like James Dobson's teaching on the matter--it's to be applied only for deliberate and willful and intentional disrespect and misbehavior. My contention is that if you start early enough, you can establish a relationship of respect such that the child will want to avoid spanking at any cost--even at bending of pride and will-which is the idea of modeling God's relationship to us. I can remember pretty much only one real (if any) spanking from my own Dad--and it was for disrespecting my Mom. Never spank a child for being a child--for spilling something, etc.--but, now, if every attempt has been made to correct a behavior that could especially lead to the child's injury or harm, to no avail, it might be time to get out some kind of innocuous paddle or careful with the hand (yes, so you feel it too) kind of thing. I personally cannot stomach the idea of spanking mine--he's our only, and at 16-1/2 months--to me, he's still very much a baby and I can't stand seeing him get shots and cry--so it's going to be a LONG time before I can muster the courage to implement corporal punishment. However, that being said--children love and need boundaries--they need to know they're safe--if they can get away with anything, then, that's what they'll do. I worked with a guy once who was a part-time youth pastor--he "got on to" a kid who was misbehaving and harshly scolded and corrected him--the child later that day came to him in private and said, "I wish you were my Daddy...."

It is impressive to hear such commentary. It is even more impressive that so many are so disciplined about discipline.

Tim: You said >> The best advice I can give you is this.....Don't hit your kids. Don't spank, smack, discipline by force for any reason whatsoever or howsoever.

So how do you discipline? And how do you handle willful disobedience?

Okay, here's a softened, conservative, experienced Mom's perspective. As a new parent (twelve short years ago) I thought spanking was a good solution to willful disobedience. Here is what I noticed with my young son (the only child in our home who has had to experience spankings). I began to see a look of deep sadness, confusion and a pulling away from me. I observed a building anger and premature independence in a perpetually gleeful child we nick-named Mommy's Velcro Boy because he always had to be at my side. Was it because he began to see that the person upon whom he was completely dependent for survival would intentionally hurt him and then have the gall take Him before the throne of grace and tell him that it was God who designed things that way? I don't know the answer to that but I am certain of one thing. God never, ever has or will treat me in such a barbaric manner. I know barbaric is a strong term but what else would you call using physical force on someone so much smaller than you? If we were in the public arena we would call it bullying. Let's just be honest and admit that when it comes to children there are simply times when we do not know what to do so we pull out the old "rod of correction" excuse for not doing a better job of being in relationship with our kids. Dig deeper in your Bible to get a better understanding of the rod. It is a tool of gentle guidance and direction, a tool of showing ownership and belonging. Dig in. There is much more to this tool than we as non-shepherds understand. And we really should have a better back-up to the argument than "Dobson and Tripp said it's the way so it must be okay."

Do my children run wild and challenge my authority as the parent? Sometimes. I challenge God's authority sometimes, too and so do you. But more often than not they are great kids with a huge capacity to accept firm but gentle correction. When they defy us, my husband and I meet the challenge head on and establish natural consequences similar to what they will find as they grow up. I don't ever see them having to deal with a boss or a customer that will hit them when they don't make a deadline but I do see them getting fired or losing the sale if they willfully disobey. They need to understand that choices reap real consequences, good or bad. They do not need to be reminded day after day that I am the bigger, stronger, superior being. What happens when they are bigger than you? At what age do you become forced to deal with them in a real relationship? And how much more difficult will it be to try to establish that relationship after years of hitting rather than building trust and confidence with the child as a person?

Come on guys, I really believe we can find a way to communicate with our children and see them as the gift they truly are. If that's not enough, let me ask you how you would like them to treat you when you are dependent on them?

Dads, please stop and really think and pray about what you are doing with and to your children. They adore you. They need you to show them who God is and how He loves, cares for and disciplines those who are His own. They need to know that Jesus died to pay for their sin and that you will die to yourself in order for them to understand that. They need to know that He raised from the dead and that He did it because their eternal lives are so important to Him. They need to know that they are full heir with Christ and we need to behave in a way that shows them that we are heirs, too. When you spank your child, you are hitting a child of the King of Kings and I really don't know how anyone can justify that.

God forgive me for ever laying a hand on Your beautiful creation rather than guiding him along Your path of righteousness in gentleness and loving kindness.

Beth

the best spanking training I have found is Growing Kids GOD's Way.the series explains how to when to and most important restoring the relationship between you two. its alot and knot enough time today.

...........continuation as I was not able to includ eall the vss I wanted to on the first post................

Hebrews 12

3. For consider Him who has endured such hostility by sinners against Himself, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.
4. You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin;
5. and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons, "MY SON, DO NOT REGARD LIGHTLY THE DISCIPLINE OF THE LORD,
NOR FAINT WHEN YOU ARE REPROVED BY HIM;

6. FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES,
AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES."

7. It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline?
8. But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.
9. Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live?
10. For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, so that we may share His holiness.
11. All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.
12. Therefore, strengthen the hands that are weak and the knees that are feeble,
13. and make straight paths for your feet, so that the limb which is lame may not be put out of joint, but rather be healed.
14. Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.


------------------------------------------------------------

Ephesians 6

1. Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right.
2. HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER (which is the first commandment with a promise),
3. SO THAT IT MAY BE WELL WITH YOU, AND THAT YOU MAY LIVE LONG ON THE EARTH.
4. Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord.
5. Slaves, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart, as to Christ;
6. not by way of eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart.
7. With good will render service, as to the Lord, and not to men,
8. knowing that whatever good thing each one does, this he will receive back from the Lord, whether slave or free.
9. And masters, do the same things to them, and give up threatening, knowing that both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no partiality with Him.
10. Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of His might.

I just keep running across more scripture....thank you for asking this question carrollers...it has made me focus in on some scriptures that I have not read for a while.
vs 15 very important to remember.
Colossians 3
15. Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body; and be thankful.
16. Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God.
17. Whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks through Him to God the Father.
18. Wives, be subject to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.
19. Husbands, love your wives and do not be embittered against them.
20. Children, be obedient to your parents in all things, for this is well-pleasing to the Lord.
21. Fathers, do not exasperate your children, so that they will not lose heart.
22. Slaves, in all things obey those who are your masters on earth, not with external service, as those who merely please men, but with sincerity of heart, fearing the Lord.
23. Whatever you do, do your work heartily, as for the Lord rather than for men,
24. knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance. It is the Lord Christ whom you serve.
25. For he who does wrong will receive the consequences of the wrong which he has done, and that without partiality.

I'm new to this forum, and generally don't post on forums, but felt compelled to post a comment on this one since it does seem to be starting to become a bit heated. Spanking is one of those topics that has strong feelings attached to it, and causes folks to become quite defensive if someone speaks against their philosophy (like politics :-).

When I had my first child almost twelve years ago I was an anomaly... a man who had decided to never spank my children. My first child being a daughter who was generally well-behaved, I was able to live by my principle. The typical alternate disciplinary actions of time-out, losing of privileges, and discussions worked well.

Three years later my son was born. My wonderful, glorious, emotional son who has a huge capacity for unselfish acts of kindness, but also a huge capacity for the throwing of fits if things don't go his way. I learned that mild forms of discipline would not always work for him. So, over time I learned that at times I would have to spank him so the message would register in his brain.

So, my simple advice for "carrollers", who started this thread, is this:

The bottom-line is that each child is different. Each child has special needs in the area of disciplining, and having a blanket rule doesn't acknowledge this. What works for one child will not always work for the next. I've found that "progressive discipline" works best (starting with the mild forms, and leading up to the more severe if they don't correct the behavior) and can be exercised for every child. Some children will correct their behavior with the most mild of discipline (i.e. timeout), and others may push the envelope until they receive the most severe (i.e. spanking).

An important thing to keep in mind is that if you always start out the discipline with the most severe form (i.e. spanking), you have no where to go if the child continues to push back. The progressive discipline provides a suitable escalation method, giving the child time to think about his/her actions (and hopefully make amends, asking for forgiveness and making it right) between each of the phases. Once the child understands the progressive discipline (what's going to happen first, second, third, etc...) they should start to be able to correct their behavior earlier in the process.

One final note is the aftermath... the consequences... the making things right after the discipline has occurred. I personally think that this is the most important aspect of discipline. The child needs to "make things right" (as we call it in our household). This consists of praying to God and asking forgiveness, and apologizing to whoever their negative actions were directed (and anyone else who suffered through their negative actions). If the offense caused a physical damage, they must correct it (i.e. if they threw a fit and knocked stuff over, they must pick it up and fix it). The aftermath is where the real learning comes in - seeing the consequences of their actions and how it affects other folks.

The bottom-bottom line is this... regardless of the discipline method used, if the child is loved, respected, and accepted through the process, they'll end up as better people afterwards.

carrolers:

My current plan (insert laugh) is to employ more love & logic style approaches as the kids grow in understanding and ability to reason. My oldest is only 7, so I'm still new to employing more logic.

A 17 year old who is acting out generally should be able to bear the consequences of their choices, and that would (in the case of my own growing up) often include loss of privileges and trust. Lost trust with my parents was always a big deal to me, though that's not always the case.

Ain't being a dad fun??

Again there is a TREMENDOUS difference between "hitting, smacking, striking, violence" and biblical chastisement. some folks go to great lengths to to get around gods word and shirk an unpleasant directive. I do not enjoy it either but once i submitted to gods written instructions instead of something i dreamed up, my three year old terror turned into a happy, obedient and respectful boy two years and running.
I think some people are blessed with children who need very little correction. I have one of each.

I have been reading this with interest. I appreciate the words of wisdom that point us back to the source of all knowledge (God's Word). I was reminded while reading this of another issue where the Church is divided. That of homosexuality. Those who seek to justify this sinful behavior do so using God's word and appeals to reason and love. They point out that a loving God could never condemn a loving committed relationship between two people. They pull verses out of the Bible to back up their beliefs. They have great logical arguments that appeal to our sense of fairness and compassion. They point out how much things have changed since the old testament was written and how we are under the new covenant.

There is only one problem with this. In order to excuse this behavior, they must ignore, change, or otherwise circumvent passages of scripture that expressly forbid this behavior. There is no amount of reasoning, or parsing, or spinning, or twisting that will change one single word of God's law. The same God that inspired those words, rules right now. He has not changed, His word has not changed, and human beings have not changed.

Back to the topic at hand (sorry for the rabbit trail) and I realize that this issue is not homosexuality. But the similarity strikes me. We have God's Word repeatedly, and specifically instructing parents to discipline their children. It even tells us how ( a rod on their backside). It tells us that it is good for them (saves them from Sheol, drives foolishness from them, and corrects them) and that it will hurt, but not kill them. And yet we have people inventing creative arguments that we should not obey what the scripture commands. I have to give points for chutzpah, but I certainly don't want to be the one to have to stand before God and explain why I did not follow the instructions he left for how to raise the children he gave me.

God has given us commands on how to raise the children he has given us. They are His and not ours, and He is telling us to use a rod to correct them. The infliction of temporary pain in order to discipline a child is a loving and Godly act. This must be done with love and restraint. It must be done in wisdom and with fear and trembling on the part of the parent. The idea is to provide a boundary upon which their actions will impinge when they rebel against the authority of their parents. It is not to create a nightmare of terror that they will get brutally beaten for innocent childishness.

We must maintain our focus on what is truly important. If our highest goal is a close and warm relationship with our children, we will act accordingly. If it is to affirm the child's dignity, we will make sure we never do anything that would threaten that. If is to ensure outward compliance with authority we will focus on actions and consequences at the expense of inner character. If it is to raise a child who is a follower of Christ then we will obey God's word on how to do that and not spare the rod.

My highest goal for parenting is that my children would have their hearts transformed by the Holy Spirit into a new creation. My loftiest hope is that they would live their lives as passionate followers of Christ. My prayer is that they realize from an early age that the purpose of their lives is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever (stole this from the Shorter Catechism) not for them to be comfortable and happy. God is the one that will do this, but He has given them to me to raise along with instructions on how to raise them. I question these instructions at my peril.

So, in obedience and love, I spank my children when they willfully disobey or defy their parents. They are not surprised by this. They understand the actions and consequences and they do not often require it, but it is consistent, loving, and necessary. I do not do this in order to force outward compliance for my convenience...I do this because I am commanded to and because I love them. Loving them means that I act for their good, even if it is something that they don't "want".

As much as some folks think that spanking a child is counter-intuitive because it is "violent", they put their own wisdom ahead of God's. They ask questions like: "How can we seriously think that spanking a child will lead to anything but a violent and hateful person?" Thinking like this denies the work of the Holy Spirit in a child's heart. It is during the pain and hard times that the Holy Spirit grows me into Christ's image, not the comfortable and happy times, why would it be different with children? Those who think these things are right in their own eyes and I will not likely convince them. I caution others not to listen to them.

While writing this I am not attacking anyone. I am pointing us back to God's word and speaking against ideas that deny the truth of the Bible. If I give offense, please forgive me.

You are absolutely right penguin, I failed to mention that the pearls go beyond what is necessary and gleaning is a good word to use when reading this book. The pearls can be very legalistic and take the love out of it. But I think he is right that our very real God will not handle us only with love, He is a just God and we must obey or risk the very real consequences. Maybe Dobsons book is a better one or more likely the Bible itself.
I think you guys took what i was trying to say and explained it better. I am two years young in my Christianity and am playing catch up like crazy in order to send my boys souls to Heaven. I really appreciate this site and all that you guys write. Daniel Nihan

carrolers it appears that no one has a good answer on how to deal with teenagers who are testing the boundaries provided by there parents, sorry I was not of much help. However I did know a family who used push ups as a form of punishment, not just a few, but enough that would make you have to work at getting them done, 100 +, this could be effective for a boy especially if he had to complete the push up "girl style"! They made their girls do the push ups too.

I would like to take a moment to briefly respond to 'tim', by simply saying that by your second paragraph you started contradicting your self. I'm pretty sure anyone reading your comment can see that.

I would also like to pose a few question to you 'tim'.
1. you say "Spanking, discipling, hitting, smacking whatever term you wish to use is a violent act."
So if discipline (see http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/discipline )is a violent act, then you don't/shouldn't punish in your kids in any manner, spanking or other wise, correct?
2. you say "Violence is a consequence of sin."
I would like you to point out in scripture where this is the case, I thought the consequence of sin is death.
I'm a sinner, your a sinner - are we violent?
3. you say "When the Kingdom of God is fully revealed in the second coming of Christ there will be no more violence."
Not inaccurate, we pray for that day to come as quickly as possible, not sure what that has to do with discipline though.

Remember as christians we need to be of one mind concerning the things of the Word, which is Jesus Christ.
Romans 15
5. Now may the God who gives perseverance and encouragement grant you to be of the same mind with one another according to Christ Jesus,

Philippians 1
27. Only conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or remain absent, I will hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;
Philippians 2
2. make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose.

Chad - I said my last post would be my last but hey!!!!

anyway one more!

I will be as plain as possible to avoid confusion

1. your dictionary gives three alternatives for the word "discipline" when using a dictionary you should know that this does not mean that the word must have all three elements to be discipline. The dictionary is saying discipline is this, or it could be this or it could be this etc. It might be all three or it might be just one. Therefore if you dictionary definition is applied correctly discipline need not be physical on the part of the one dispensing discipline. Discipline is something that brings understanding and correction. Indeed even the third point of the dictionary definition can be achieved without smacking/spanking. Moreover that is an English definition and not an exegetical examination of the biblical texts to understand what the would means in Hebrew or Greek (which I do not have time to do right now - if someone else does I think it would be very helpful to the discussion).

2. you say I am a sinner you are a sinner are we violent - simple answer YES! have you ever thought ill toward another person? - please read the Sermon on the Mount! Its our inner life that is the seat of violence. Did you know that in Hebrew the opposite of poor is not rich it is violence! Blessed are the poor in their inner life because theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven. Blessed are the poor in Spirit because they are the ones who have received the gospel and are living within the Kingdom. The world has an inner life that is categorised by thoughts which are sinful amongst which is violent in spirit. This unrepentant unregenerate life is the life of sin. We still live in sin in an antithetical way to this beatitude because we live in the "now but not yet" of the Kingdom. In the rest of the sermon Jesus points out how a person living the gospel lives their inner life and how this plays out in outer action. Maybe you have never cursed your brother or harboured ill-will to another human being - bless you if that's the case. But yes in our sinful state one of the manifestations of that sin is a propensity to harbour violent thoughts, that though they may never be acted upon, are just as bad as if we did act upon them.

3. You must have misunderstood my point if you fail to see what it has to do with physical punishment. Violence is a sign that things have gone wrong. When the "not yet" comes in the return of Jesus Christ we will know fully the blessings of the Kingdom of God and at that time there will be no more violence of whatever form.

Bless you Chad as you seek to parent and be a great dad - the dad Jesus wants you to be. I do not condemn anyone who spanks. My parents were great parents and we were spanked, it didn't do me a jot of harm, but nor do I feel it did any good. Prayerfully we have decided in our house we won't spank/smack. We discipline by trying to allow our kids to understand why their behaviour is wrong. This is achieved through conversation and acts of restitution and reconciliation. For instance if our son hits out he needs to understand why this action is wrong and then make reconciliation with the wronged party, this involves acts of selfless kindness toward the person.

Anyway......bless you as you seek to parent and God bless, you are a great Christian dad - keep Christ the centre of your home. Blessings

I've been wondering if I should post any sort of defense on behalf of Growing Kids God's Way (Ezzos) and No Greater Joy (Pearls) or not, and thought I'd just put this out there for the sake of anyone who's been blessed by their ministries (like me) or who may be considering checking into them.

I believe that these 2 ministries are truly a great gift from God to our generation, and know that they have been a profound blessing to 100's-of-thousands of families, if not millions. Jesus said that you'll now them by their fruit, and there is VERY MUCH good fruit. I honor the Ezzos and Pearls for having the courage to put down some wisdom based on biblical principle to the point where families can have a better idea of "what that might look like" in everyday life. They have received much criticism and condemnation, have listened to what was worth listening to and allowed it to refine them and their teaching; but persisted in what God has called them to do and not let the Accuser shut them down nor control them.

I have read and digested a large amount of both of their materials, and have facilitated GKGW classes in my home for ~ 9 years. I've personally seen several families blessed and transformed as a result. The Prep For Parenting (infant) information helped my first son overcome colic so quickly and early that it confounded his doctors (who we had been HOUNDING for help). The people that I've personally witnessed who have had a negative experience with these ministries all fall into 1 of 2 categories: 1. the standard presented was too high and it was too much work, and so they counted the cost and decided they just didn't want to put forth the effort to undergo the necessary changes, or 2. they were overly prideful and self-righteous and attempted to apply what they learned in the strength of their flesh looking to glorify themselves more than God.

That being said, there is no denying that some families have had negative experiences in their attempt to apply what they've learned from these ministries. Neither the Ezzos nor Pearls are laying claim to perfection. Both will counsel you to pray over what your learning, listen to the Holy Spirit and study God's word for how you should apply it in your family, take the good/applicable-to-you and leave the rest. And anyone would be foolish to not test what they're being taught by any individual or ministry, and only implement what they've found to be good in humility and by the spirit.

When we consider that all humanity is growing (not perfect), all ministries are made up of imperfect people, and that EVERYONE who professes Christ is our brother/sister, then I strongly believe that leveling the charge of "heretic" is WAY over-the-top (to the point of being demonic). In the not-so-distant past of church history, this was a key charge consistently leveled by well-meaning but sadly-misled "leaders", and resulted in atrocious rejection, division, blood-shed, and murder.

Colosians 2
1: For I would that ye knew what great conflict I have for you, and for them at Laodicea, and for as many as have not seen my face in the flesh;
2: That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
3: In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
4: And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.
5: For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.
6: As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
7: Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
8: Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9: For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.
10: And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:


Romans 6
1: What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2: God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3: Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4: Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5: For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7: For he that is dead is freed from sin.

I was reading back over some of the other discussions, and thought I would add something to this one from some time ago.

I have two teenagers, and two younger children. Both of my teens earn money. (You'd think this would enhance the quality of the gifts I get, but ...) Anyway, I've been experimenting with a new method od discipline. When they commit a certain typie of "crime", my newest thing it to charge them $5.00. I mostly do this when I have asked them to take care of something, and they procrastinate to the nth degree. So far, this has been pretty effective.

Another use of shebet refers to the staff carried by the head of a family (or family group, clan) such as the staff Moses carried when parting the Red Sea; It was the staff held by a man that symbolized his authority. There was often symbolism in the designs at the top of the shebet and they represented different levels of authority within a tribe or family. When a stranger would ride into camp they would look for the shebet of the highest authority and that is the individual who could grant them refuge for the night. He held the authority to speak for everyone under his authority. He also had the authority to ensure the training of the children in his family.

Shebet was also used to denote the sceptre used by the king. The use of the king's sceptre is perfectly illustrated in the story of Esther. The king used the shebet (by extending it) to save Esther's life. Had he spared the rod, it would have meant her death.

There are also places in Scripture where shebet is used symbolically, as when the “rod of Jesse” that springs up speaks in prophecy of the coming Messiah. This does not mean that it would be appropriate exegesis to assume everywhere that we find “shebet” we can insert “Messiah”, but the Hebraic understanding of the shebet and its purpose reveals why it can be used to speak of Messiah. If it were an instrument intended for striking and destruction then we would need to see Messiah as coming to destroy, not redeem. In other words, while “Messiah” is not the idea we can infuse into every use of “rod”, we need to understand “rod” with the awareness that it is also used to speak of "Messiah."

Therefore, when a Hebrew man read reference in Scripture to shebet, he would know the purpose. He would not assume a verse that referenced his shebet would mean he was to strike someone with it unless it was speaking specifically to striking with it. For example, Exodus 21:12 “He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death.” This verse is very important in understanding the Proverbs passages because it was well understood, from within the Torah, that it is possible to strike a man and cause his death—with the shebet. Exodus 21:20 “And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.” And the Torah goes on to give specific instructions for how often a slave may be struck with a shebet and specific details on where. The importance of this is that no such provisions are given for striking children. If Torah allows for something that requires a boundary, otherwise it can lead to abuse or death, the boundaries are very clearly stated. No such boundaries are provided for the idea of striking children. Torah was the guideline for life in the ancient Hebrew world. It is God’s instruction—the Way to live that Jesus came to fulfill. Nothing else in the Old Testament is to be understood as a command from God except what appears in Torah. The Proverbs are most assuredly wisdom sayings and there is wisdom in them, but a Hebrew person would never confuse the Proverbs with Torah as instruction commanded by the Lord.

Even today, it is accepted that a proverb is a wise saying, often metaphorical, some even take a bit of thinking to figure out. No one here among us would argue that you must slit your throat according to Proverbs 23:1-2, but the same group argues vehemently that parents must strike their children (although there has been some disagreement on whether or not to use a weapon). If you believe that the rod verses are to be taken literally, then you must believe that you are sinning by doing the cultural practice of spanking. The word “spank” does not appear anywhere in Scripture and was not a concept in the Hebraic world. If you believe in a literal English translation of literally "beating" (for this is the word used) your child with a rod, then "spanking" with your hand, or a paint stirrer or anything else, just doesn't cut it. If you believe Proverbs to be literal directives to be followed to the (English translation) letter, then you must beat your child with a tree branch (not a stick, that word is choter) as tall as yourself and as big around as your wrist. But surely that could kill him, which would make Proverbs 23:13 untrue. As if we didn't already know this not to be the case, refer back to Exodus which tells us that it IS possible to kill a full grown adult with a shebet, and the penalty is death, how much more so a child?

I'll have to come back at another time for more, dinner calls. Thanks for reading and being open to what I've said so far. God bless you all and your families.

All I need to say is that God never changes. The Bible is to be our guide and instruction. Reguardless of "changes" in society. What God has instructed us to do is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow . A loving Father disciplines his children. And discipline will sometimes warant a spanking. Not in anger, but in love.

well said blsdw8. Toby, I agree with you; to spank a child in love is discipline, but to spank a child in anger is abuse, and the parent needs to repent. However, like blsdw8 said, there are times, especially when children have been abused, when spanking would be inappropriate, and indeed counterproductive.

I see one common theme throughout this thread; each dad who has spoken is absolutely committed to raising godly children. For that, I thank God, and ask His blessing on each of your families! Our methods may differ, but our hearts are the same!

Word to the wise: IF YOU SPANK, AND IT IS REPORTED TO CHILD PROTECTIVE SERVICES, THERE WILL BE AN INVESTIGATION. PERIOD. While the law does not prhoibit spanking, child protective services considers it abuse. If CPS finds that you have been abusive, you will be taken to family court. At the very least, unless you are in the minority of 1% or less, there will be a finding of dependency, which means that your life will be overseen by CPS for the next few years. This is getting worse in America. The internet has a number of websites that talk about such events and websites of people that are fighting against CPS and the power they weild.

Some sites liken such power to the social services enacted by Adolph Hitler. Look it up.